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Showing posts with label Depression. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Depression. Show all posts

Monday, March 17, 2014

God Is with You in Depression

Depression is often illusive. Some dark cloud gathers and hangs overhead. You feel constantly ill at ease. Whether triggered by negative events, or some undefined cause, you know despondency when you experience it, even if you find it hard to describe.

Sometimes it’s circumstantial, but often you’re left scratching your head, wondering, Where did all the joy go?

God Is There with You

Author Randy Alcorn is no foreigner to depression. He has journeyed through dark seasons — once for four months on end — and offers this word of hope to the Christian: “God is there with you in the depression.”

Don’t wait till the depression passes to seek God, advises Alcorn. He’s not waiting for you to come out of it before walking with you, but he’s eager to walk with you in the midst of it.    Continue at David Mathis

Friday, March 14, 2014

7 Ways The Lord Uses Depression in the Life of a Minister

The Minister’s Fainting Fits, has proven to be one of the most personally helpful chapters in Spurgeon’s Lectures to My Students. There he writes:
Knowing by most painful experience what deep depression of spirit means, being visited therewith at seasons by no means few or far between, I thought it might be consolatory to some of my brethren if I gave my thoughts thereon…It is not necessary by quotations from the biographies of eminent ministers to prove that seasons of fearful prostration have fallen to the lot of most, if not all of them.
I am one of those ministers that battles seasons of deep depression. (I’ve chronicled my struggle elsewhere). These “fits of melancholy” can be quite confusing to the pastor. In the midst of darkness we are pressed to wonder how in the world we will deliver a sermon on Sunday morning, counsel the struggling, and lead the faithful. I’ve said with John Piper, “Have mercy on me. I must preach on Sunday, and I can scarcely lift my head.”    Continue at Mike Leake

Monday, March 3, 2014

Eight of the Most Significant Struggles Pastors Face

Before me are handwritten notes that I took over a few weeks from various social media interactions, emails, and a few phone calls. The total is nearly 200 separate communications to me. I kept a record of them for one simple reason: I wanted to identify the greatest pain points of pastors today.

In many ways, there are no surprises. Indeed, I doubt most of you will be surprised at my findings. If nothing else, it is a good reminder of how we can help our pastors, and how we can pray for them. Of course, you will quickly see that they are not mutually exclusive. They are listed in the order of frequency I noted.
  1. Criticism and conflict. I do have a few observations about this number one issue. First, it seems to be growing, and pastors seem to be experiencing greater challenges. Second, most of the issues of conflict are not doctrinal issues. Indeed, most are trivial issues. Finally, very few pastors are equipped and trained to deal with the steady stream of critics and crises.    Continue at Thom Rainer

Saturday, January 4, 2014

Hearing God in the Midst of Suicidal Thoughts

Once I became a Christian, I thought I had victory in Jesus, my Savior. Yet within a few months I found myself fighting the demons again. Why did I continue to struggle with this? Why does depression continue to crouch at my door even today?

No one ever suspected. I worked hard to have a polished smile and on-cue laugh. But several times during my teen years I contemplated taking my own life.

Had someone asked me why I was thinking about suicide, I would never be able to rationally explain my reasoning. It's hard to admit that I thought life was so hard that I wanted to end it—especially considering how easy my life has been in comparison with people suffering all over the world. It's also hard to describe the experience of depression. It's like trying to describe living in a room that is pitch black.

It can be dangerous to speak generally about depression and suicide, and I don't want to give anyone the impression that such thoughts of self-harm are acceptable. While they are more common than we care to admit, we should not give in to the debilitating lie that death is better than life. This is true especially in light of our overly psychologized culture that too readily qualifies us as victim—and not also a perpetrator in our own mess.   Continue at Matthew S. Wireman

Friday, September 27, 2013

The Strange Glory of Ordinary Things


Clyde Kilby was born September 26, 1902. He may have been my most influential teacher when I was in college. But then again it may have been Stuart Hackett. Kilby was a romantic — like C. S. Lewis. Hackett was a rationalist — like C. S. Lewis. One taught literature, the other taught philosophy. One taught me to see with the eyes of a poet. The other taught me the ubiquitous relevance of the law of non-contradiction.

I thank God for both of them. I believe what they saw was right and wise. But Kilby went deeper, I think. That’s not a criticism of the philosopher. It’s a statement about who we are as human beings. We are meant to reason because God is rational. And we are meant to rejoice because of the glory we see. But the reason serves the rejoicing. The thinker and analyzer in us is meant to protect the poet and lover.

On this his birthday I thought you might like to taste the joyful healthfulness of Kilby’s soul. On October 22, 1976, he gave an unforgettable lecture at First Covenant Church in Minneapolis. I went because I wanted to hear, after eight years, the man who taught me to look at trees.

That night he pled with us to stop seeking mental health in the mirror of self-analysis, but instead to drink in the remedies of God in nature. He was not naïve. He knew of sin. He knew of the necessity of redemption in Christ. But he would have said that Christ purchased new eyes for us as well as new hearts.    Continue at John Piper

Tuesday, July 2, 2013

Ten Things I’ve Learned about Pastors in Two Years

Though this blog is four years old, I did not get serious about the pace of my blogging until about two years ago. If you have spent any time at my blog, you know that I devote a lot of my writings to local church matters in general, and to pastors specifically.

The world of the pastor is not unknown to me. I served as a lead pastor in four churches and, when I was a seminary dean, as an interim pastor in eight more churches. I also served as a church consultant for about 20 years before coming to LifeWay.

But it has been at this blog the past two years that I really feel like I know pastors more in breadth and depth than ever before. I hear from them in the comments of the posts. Others read my posts and leave comments at Facebook, Twitter, and Google+. Some choose the privacy of direct messages on Twitter. They number in the thousands.

If you read my posts, you know I often like to do numerical lists. I will do so here, but I struggled to stop at ten. Perhaps I will continue the list later. For now, here are ten things I’ve learned about pastors in the past two years.
  1. They truly sense God’s call in their lives. It’s not just another job for them; it is, as one pastor told me, “an inescapable reality.”
  2. They love their churches and the members. The metaphor of “shepherd” is truly appropriate for these pastors. They care deeply for those they serve.    Continue at Thom Rainer

Tuesday, June 18, 2013

Depression and the Ministry, Part 1: The Setup

Editor's Note: The following is part one of a five-part series on depression and the ministry. The series is a joint effort of the Biblical Counseling Coalition and The Gospel Coalition.

**********

Sam’s Story

I was there the week it happened. His wife asked to see me. Tearfully she told me that he had walked into the church building that week and announced to his staff that he was “done.” He said he couldn’t face preaching another sermon; that all that he really wanted to do was to run away from his own life. Sam was 45 and the pastor of a vibrant and growing church.

I am convinced that there are important changes needed in pastoral culture and that the number of pastors who find themselves in the range from discouraged to depressed give clear evidence of this. Let me suggest four potential setups of this discouragement/depression cycle in ministry.

Setup #1: Unrealistic Expectations

 

I taught a class at Westminster Seminary on pastoral care and was impressed year after year about how unrealistic the expectations of my future-pastor students were. Year after year my students seemed to forget the two things that consistently make pastoral ministry hard. What are they? The harsh reality of life in a dramatically broken world and what remaining sin does to the hearts of us all. These two things make pastoral ministry a day by day spiritual war.  Continue at Paul Tripp

Tuesday, April 16, 2013

11 Myths and Misperceptions about Suicide

This week, we will focus attention on the subject of suicide. We will seek to understand this growing, heart-wrenching problem in our fallen world. As we seek to learn to be wise friends and counselors, let us also pray that we will grow in ministering the grace and truth of Jesus Christ to those who have lost all hope and desire to live and to those whose lives have been forever changed by the death of another.

Today’s post is written by police and fire chaplain, and pastor, Bruce Ray, author of the new e-Book HELP! My Friend Is Suicidal.

There are many myths and misperceptions about suicide that hinder us from dealing effectively with suicidal persons. Here are some of them, with brief comments:
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  1. Suicide is always caused by depression. Actually, other factors such as anger, revenge, remorse and drug and alcohol abuse may be more dominant influences. Bill and Mary was a young couple who were living together. They went to a bar to celebrate a special occasion. Both had been drinking and Bill accused Mary of flirting with another bar patron. They argued all the way home, where Bill decided to show Mary how upset he was by forcing her to watch him commit suicide in front of her.
  2. People who talk about suicide won’t really do it – they just want attention. It is true that sometimes suicide “attempts” are cries for help, but remember the boy who cried “Wolf!” One day the wolf actually came, and no one believed him. It is dangerous to assume that a suicide threat is “only” to get attention.
  3. Thinking about suicide means you will commit suicide.  Many people have fleeting occasional suicidal thoughts, but do not act on them. A key concern is when thinking about suicide extends to the point of actually making a plan.
  4. If you talk about suicide to a suicidal subject, you may encourage her to do it.  The fear of pushing someone over the edge leads us to avoid the subject. Actually, talking about her thoughts and feelings to someone who is really listening and interacting may be a release for the suicidal subject that makes it unnecessary for her to act.
  5. A true believer cannot commit suicide. Samson was chosen by God to be one of the judges who would deliver and protect his people from the Philistines (Judges 13-16). Despite his many faults, Samson seems to have been a true believer who prayed for God to give him the strength to collapse the Philistine temple on his captors even though it meant his own death as well.  Samson is named in “the great faith chapter” of the Bible (Hebrews 11) as one of many “who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised” (Hebrews 11:32-33) [Some question whether Samson’s death was a case of suicide or martyrdom.] Other factors may affect the decisions believers make. Pastor Bob stunned everyone when he put a handgun to his head and pulled the trigger one night. Weeks later, his wife discovered that a new heart medication he was taking listed depression and suicidal ideation as possible side-effects. If they had known, they could have removed all guns from the house as a precaution and discussed changing the medication with his cardiologist.   Continue at Paul Tautges

Tuesday, April 9, 2013

7 Questions about Suicide and Christians

I am sure we all grieve deeply and pray earnestly with Rick and Kay Warren, as they mourn the shocking loss by suicide of their dear son, Matthew, after many years of struggle with mental illness. Perhaps pray especially for Kay as she has had her own battles with depression.

From all that I can gather of the circumstances surrounding this tragic situation, I believe that Rick, Kay, the church, and the caring professions did all that they could to prevent this happening, and should not blame themselves. As many of us have also experienced, when someone’s mind has gone so far and their emotions have sunk so deep, and they are determined to end their life, it’s virtually impossible to stop.

As well-publicized suicides tend to increase the suicide rate quite dramatically, I thought it would be good to address seven of the questions that arise in our minds at times like this.

How common is suicide?
  • It is estimated more than one million people die by suicide each year in the world, or more than 2,700 people per day
  • There has been a 31% increase in the number of suicides in the U.S., from an estimated 80 a day in 1999 to 105 a day in 2010.
  • Nearly 20,000 of the 30,000 deaths from guns in the United States in 2010 were suicides, according to the most recent figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
  • Suicidal acts with guns are fatal in 85 percent of cases, while those with pills are fatal in just 2 percent of cases, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center.
  • 465,000 people a year are seen in ER for self-injury.
  • Suicide is the third-leading cause of death for teenagers.
  • 7% of 18-39 year olds said that they had seriously considered suicide in the last year.
  • In 2010, the last year for which figures are available, 22 veterans took their own lives every day, with the largest number occurring among men between 50 and 59.  Continue at David Murray

Thursday, March 14, 2013

Depression: When the Black Dog Howls

A version of this was first posted as a Facebook note in 2009. Nothing in this post should be construed as medical or medicinal advice.

The term “black dog” was used by Winston Churchill to describe depression and, though it predates the British prime minister, is the sum total of familiarity most seem have with it. Regardless of who coined it, “black dog” is as apt a descriptor of the frustrating experience of depression as there is. Ask anyone who deals with it regularly.

At this point in my life I cannot even remember when I started dealing with depressive episodes. (I do not use the phrase “suffering from depression”; it just does not seem to fit me.) I’m pretty certain that it has not always been a part of my life, though it may have been unrecognized earlier on. For the last few years, however, there are three or four times each year that it hits.

It is funny when you start talking about being depressed and experience the reactions of those around. The responses can range from the spiritual (“Pray more.”), to the physical (“Are you getting outside enough?”) to the ludicrous (“Just pull out of it.”)

One can no more “just pull out of” a depressive episode than they can “just pull” the moon out of its orbit.
 
This note is the result of my own observations and experiences over the last couple of years.   Continue at Marty Duren

Thursday, February 7, 2013

Any Place for the God of Job?



The last twenty-four hours have seen widespread reporting of the latest TGC 'kerfuffle,' this time over Mark Driscoll's comments about Joel Osteen.  I guess I am becoming rather jaded, but I am surprised there is surprise: he is the man, after all, who gave T. D. Jakes a clean bill of health last year.

More interesting, however, is the hint that some unnamed modern reformed types make too much of suffering.  The apparent connection Pastor Driscoll makes between this and a world which apparently over-uses antidepressants is interesting and no doubt worthy of discussion.  For me, it triggered a chain of related thoughts in my mind.  Do we make too much of suffering?  Is depression sinful?  Is it always the result of personal sin?  Or poor preaching?  Or defective theology and unbalanced homiletic emphases?  I am convinced that this is not so. Once one moves in that direction, one is positing a tight and necessary connection between personal issues and specific suffering. That is not biblical and is pastorally very dangerous. Yes, suffering can sometimes be that way: the man who cheats on his wife and loses his family suffers as a direct result of his personal sin. But is the depressed person necessarily suffering because of some specific sin? The Bible, I believe, teaches that this is not so.

Preaching through Job recently, I was very struck by the Lord's final intervention.   Job has suffered incredibly throughout the book; and we, the readers, know that none of this is his fault.  It is the result of the battle between God and the Accuser and, if anything, Job's suffering is thus the result of his devotion to the Lord, which Satan wishes to test.  
 
 And by the end of Job's last big speech (Job 31) he is depressed, and with good reason.  The man has lost everything.   Continue at Carl Trueman

Monday, November 19, 2012

No Sir, I’m not Admitting to Clergy Burnout…














 

 ..and I’m guessing that most of my ministerial colleagues will be loath to make such an admission as well.

There is a perfectly good reason for such an attitude: No pastor wishes to be seen as damaged goods.

I have admitted to being “a bit tired” and did so many times over the past couple of years when people in my church would ask why I am retiring at such a young (er, 62, young?) age. A feeling of mild ministerial fatigue was for me merely one of the Lord’s signposts that my ministry at the church I had served for almost 15 years was drawing to a close – a normal progression.

I will also admit to being attuned to articles on clergy burnout and depression partly because I have been around some colleagues who appeared to be significantly fatigued, er, burned out.

The Baptist Standard carried story out of Baylor University on the subject.

 
The usual statistics are trotted out:
• 90 percent of pastors report working between 55 to 75 hours a week.
• 90 percent feel inadequately trained to cope with the ministry demands.
• 50 percent feel unable to meet the demands of the job.
• 55 percent say they are discouraged.
• 70 percent do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 80 percent believe pastoral ministry has affected their families in a negative way.  
Continue at
William Thornton

Friday, October 5, 2012

Feeding Your Soul

When your soul is in turmoil, it’s hard to see clearly. Fear, anger, sorrow, and despair can distort your perception of reality. It’s hard to keep things in perspective. They can actually magnify your troubles.

Often, when you’re feeling overwhelmed, what you need is somebody to take you by the shoulders, look you square in the eye, and speak some sense to you. Sometimes that somebody is you.

I get this from the Bible. Listen to the psalmist talk to himself: “Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me? Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my salvation and my God” (Ps. 43:5).

This was a man in trouble. He felt threatened and overwhelmed. And in the first part of the psalm, he was doing exactly the right thing by pouring out his soul in prayer to God. But then he stopped praying and spoke directly to his soul.

God is very intentional about what He includes in the Bible. So, when God includes this kind of soultalk in the inspired hymnal for the ages, we’re supposed to notice. God clearly intends us to speak to our souls. So, we need to understand why this is important.

When the psalmists talk to themselves, what are they doing? In every instance, whether in desperation or celebration, they are reminding themselves that their hope is in God. Why? Because in a world of tribulation (John 16:33), hope drains away, and they know how crucial it is to feed one’s soul.

Hope is to our soul what energy is to our bodies. Hope is the spiritual energy generated in the soul when we believe that our future is good, even if our present is bad. Our souls must have hope to keep going, just as our bodies must have energy to keep going.   Continue at Jon Bloom

Thursday, September 13, 2012

Counseling the Hard Cases

Sexual abuse. Schizophrenia. Anorexia. Porn. Postpartum depression. Paralyzing fear. Bipolar disorder. Obsessive-compulsive disorder. Dissociative identity disorder. Addiction. Adultery. Homosexuality.

Soberingly, the list goes on.

Counseling the Hard Cases: True Stories Illustrating the Sufficiency of God's Resources in Scripture, edited by Stuart Scott and Heath Lambert, offers refreshing hope. From beginning to end, the contributors share real-life stories showing how the truths of Scripture can be unleashed to bring help, hope, and healing into the lives of those battling some of the most difficult psychiatric diagnoses.

When facing the messiest issues, does God's Word contain adequate resources for hope and change? Is it sufficient for the hard stuff, too? The testimony of story after story in Counseling the Hard Cases shouts a resounding yes.

I corresponded with Lambert and Scott, professors of biblical counseling at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, about their book, misunderstandings related to counseling, practical advice for ministering to those enslaved by various sins, and more.  Continue at Matt Smethurst

Monday, September 10, 2012

Battling Depression . . . Together

In 1954, speaking of spiritual depression, Martyn Lloyd-Jones said, "I have no hesitation in asserting that one of the reasons why the Christian Church counts for so little in the modern world is that so many Christians are in this condition."

It's striking to hear of how common the struggle was in his day. Depression is no stranger to the great leaders in church history (in fact, it affected quite a lot of them), but neither is depression uncommon in the church today.

So what do we, as a church, do about it? We recently asked biblical counselor Ed Welch. Here's what he said.

Ed Welch is a speaker at our upcoming National Conference. Visit the event page to learn more and register.

For more on the theme of depression see —

Other videos from our trip to CCEF and Westminster Theological Seminary
 Credit: Desiring God

Tuesday, August 21, 2012

A Pastor's Monday

Mondays are notoriously difficult for pastors. If you are not a pastor, pray for your pastor today as you read through this post. If you are a pastor, listen to the words of pastor Jared Wilson as he describes the structure of his Mondays, along with the personal challenges he faces as another week begins. Here’s what he writes:


The fatigue begins for me as soon as the sermon is done. More often than not, I have “left it all out on the field.” But the gathering is not over. There are people to greet, visitors to meet, often times theological questions to answer and short counseling sessions to conduct. Many times there are impromptu meetings or executive decisions to be made.

At Middletown Springs Community Church, we enjoy Soup Sunday in the fellowship hall from the weekend after Thanksgiving until Easter every year. I am an introverted personality, which does not mean I don’t enjoy being with people or that I’m not good at interacting with people, only that it is work to do so. Extroverts tend to fill up in social settings; introverts tend to empty. . .

Many pastors take Mondays off because of the Sunday hangover. I do not. It is my worst day, so I refuse to give it to my family. Instead I work through it. It is a slog. Monday morning is when the email inbox and telephone mailbox are thickest. Monday morning is when people still have questions or concerns or criticisms about Sunday. (They are starting their week full, remember? They came to church for the pick-me-up, and most of them got it.) Like everybody else on Monday mornings, pastors are taking stock of what all must be accomplished in the week ahead. But Sunday was not a day of filling up for pastors, but pouring out.

On Monday mornings I enter my office and find that, like Sisyphus, the stone I spent the week previous pushing up the hill lay at the bottom again, ready for another go. Monday morning I must pastor. But what kind of must?   Continue at Tony Reinke

Wednesday, August 15, 2012

When Darkness Seems to Hide God's Face

Prior to marriage the thought of conceiving a child seemed quite easy. Everywhere I looked a woman was pregnant; surely it wasn't that difficult. My husband and I decided to try for children fairly early into our marriage. What looked easy before quickly became difficult for us. I struggled with a hope deferred combined with physical suffering and a fight to trust God under difficult circumstances.
My first trial was getting pregnant. I waited a year before becoming pregnant with my first child. I knew then I wasn't infertile. But I didn't know I would struggle with chronic miscarriages.

I knew there was something wrong during my first pregnancy when I began getting winded and dizzy going up a set of stairs. Most miscarriages seem to have little to no symptoms, but my first was full of evidence. I called my nurse, and within a few days my personal diagnosis was confirmed.

The sadness that comes along with miscarriages is indescribable. As a woman who understands that humanity begins at conception; the reality of a life---a son or a daughter---dying so young was very saddening. Yet I was full of faith after my first miscarriage. I was comforted knowing God's love for me and Jesus' relating to me (Hebrews 4:15).   Continue at Trillia Newbell

Tuesday, July 31, 2012

I Hope You’re Right, but I Doubt you Are

Jon Bloom did a service for everyone who experiences a crisis of faith in writing his most recent blog posting. I’ve worked with him either as a volunteer or as an employee for seven years and  I can’t remember how often he’s reminded me to trust God’s promises over my perceptions.  It is always good advice.

In his blog posting last Friday, When You’re in a Spiritual Storm, Trust Your Instruments, he tells his own story of a season of doubt.  But unlike my own experience of running away from God and the people of God, Jon persevered:
So I continued devotional Bible reading, prayer, church and small group attendance. I opened my heart to trusted friends and mentors and sought counsel. I remember John Piper saying to me: “Jon, the rock of truth under your feet will not long feel like sand.” When he said it, my thought was, “I hope you’re right, but I doubt you are.”
My doubts proved wrong. After a long season of darkness, God pierced the clouds with his light.
None of us can know when our particular season of darkness will end, nor can we guarantee that it won’t return for a time.  Our doubts about God’s goodness do not change the fact that God is good, nor do they change God’s ability to keep every promise he has made.  Continue at John Knight

Friday, May 25, 2012

The Clash Between Christian Counseling and the Normalization of Homosexuality

The Story: In both the U.S. and U.K, recent legal and legislative actions have attempted to discredit and ban reparative therapy (therapeutic approaches used to assist individuals in changing their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual). According to Christian Concern, the British Association for Counselling & Psychotherapy has informed a Christian counselor that she will lose her accreditation after she was tricked into provided counseling to a fake client who was secretly an undercover journalist. And in California, a bill is making its way through the legislature that would ban the therapy for minors and discourage it for adults.

The Background: The complaint against Lesley Pilkington, a counselor with over 20 years of experience, was brought against her by homosexual journalist Patrick Strudwick. Strudwick approached the counselor while attending a Christian conference about sexuality and pretended to be a Christian in need of help over unwanted homosexual attraction. According to the court report, Pilkington agreed to help him and they mutually agreed that the counseling would be based on Christian principles.

Throughout the two counseling sessions, Strudwick repeatedly told Pilkington that he wanted to leave his homosexual lifestyle, that it had become meaningless to him and that he wanted to change, says Christian Concern.

The Appeal Panel found this week that Pilkington should still lose her senior accredited status because she should not have assumed that Strudwick wanted to proceed under the same therapeutic approach that she offered, despite the fact they both agreed to do so. It also found that she should not have taken his claim that he was depressed because of his homosexuality at face value.   Continue at Joe Carter

Friday, May 18, 2012

Getting Healthy: Fighting Spiritually

I believe the life of a Christian is a life of fighting. We fight against sin and temptation. We wage a spiritual war against everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. But it wasn’t until I found myself in my weakest condition that I had to fight the most intense battles of my Christian life. It was frightening? I was too weak to fight, but this was when God called me to fight in raging battles.

My temptations were stronger, but my spirit was weaker. The Devil often accused me as a guilty sinner and one of weak faith. I struggled with crippling doubt concerning my own work, and was I fearful in all ministry contexts. I was anxious before preaching beyond a healthy fear that should be upon all who preach the word of God. I was uncertain after every message and meeting that I had done well. Most of the time I felt I was a failure, even when everything pointed to success. Even though I was certain of my calling I was equally certain of my frailty, which led me to a level of uncertainty about myself in every other area. I knew I was called, but was I still called to remain where I was? Perhaps I had done all that I could. This was terrifying, for there is no other place I want to be than serving my church.

This pressing anxiety was ever-present. It was literally hard to breathe. This drove me deeper into prayer and dependency on Jesus, but I found only small measures of comfort and relief after extended time in prayer. Or, when God’s grace to seemed to calm all storms in my heart, it only lasted for hours.   Continue at Joe Thorn